This is Reimagining The Future of Higher Education from Studiosity. Your go-to podcast with remarkable education leaders, sharing personal stories from their experience in and around the sector, including reflection and evidence for progress in the sector. With your host, Professor Judyth Sachs, former DVC Learning and Teaching at the University of Sydney, Deputy Vice-Chancellor and Provost Macquarie University and Special Advisor in Higher Education at KPMG and now Chief Academic Officer at Studiosity.
Prof Judyth Sachs:
It gives me great pleasure to introduce Dr. Susan Edwards, who is the President of Wright State University. Australian by birth, she came to the US in 2007 to Appalachian State. But I'm not going to tell your story, Sue. One of the things that we invite you to do is to bring an object that represents your journey as a learner and a leader, but just tell us your story first and then take us through your objects rather than your obj.
Dr. Susan Edwards:
So I have, so, you know, I'm a first generation university student. My parents were ten pound poms. They immigrated to Australia. And actually, I was two when they immigrated to Australia, and they from Manchester and my dad was a metal worker and my mom was a stenographer. And I fell into, I guess, my, what ended up being my career. I took a summer job working at a pathology lab in Geelong and fell in love with the science. And so, you know, I was able to work through my associate's degree. I got an associate's at RMIT in med lab science. And then I started out, I was in, I worked at Geelong Hospital for I think eight years, and then I went to Royal Melbourne Hospital. And I was sort of one of the first, part of the first pathology units in Australia to do a technique called immunohistochemistry. It's a very widely used diagnostic technique now, but back then it was new and novel and very, very almost experimental. And I happened to have a colleague who said, I have somebody at Deakin University that's really interested in what you do. And I thought, oh, well, that's interesting. And so I met with the professor at the time, it was Colin Anderson, who is just one of the best human beings on the planet, who said, I'd like you to come work with me. So that's how I got into research. And that's really got into academia. I was really in hospital pathology up until then. And I was doing, I was upgrading my associates to my degree in med lab science, but then I kind of got interested in the science and then I got my undergraduate in biological sciences while I was working with Colin. Um, and so that was kind of my introduction to academia. I was working at Deakin University and getting my degree at Deakin University at the same time. And so I was, I was not a traditional student. I was a non-traditional student and really had no one to follow because I'd never known anybody to go into academia. And I got my master's in neuroscience at Melbourne University when Colin moved to Melbourne University, I went with him, worked up there for a couple of years. And then kind of hit a crossroads. In Australia, you know, you reach the top of a scale with the NHMRC and you're not necessarily as employable as a master's graduate because you cost too much. And so I had to make a decision as to what I was gonna do for my PhD. And I used to hear the word gene and fall asleep because I really didn't understand it because it was just as molecular biology was coming into the fore. And I wasn't really great at physics or chemistry as an undergraduate. So I thought if I was going to do a PhD project, I needed something that was gonna challenge me on all of those fronts. A project came up at Deakin University, which was great. And my mentor there was Tess Toop, and she was probably, I would do my PhD 10 times over to do it with Tess. It was one of the best experiences of my life. And she gave me an opportunity that actually opened the door for the rest of my career. She sent me to Mount Desert Island Biological Laboratory in Maine in 1998 to work with her PhD mentor, Dave Evans, who was at the University of Florida at that time. And his, one of his other colleagues, J.B. Claiborne, and who was at Georgia Southern. And it was a great experience. I really had an amazing opportunity to follow my research there. I'm a fish biologist and I think you actually, one of your colleagues, I think, interviewed Deb MacLatchy from Wilfrid Laurier a few weeks ago. So Deb is one of my colleagues. And it provided me an opportunity to really understand how basic research was being valued in the United States. And so J.B., I was looking for a postdoc and J.B. within 30 seconds of me sending an email said, don't look any further, come to me. So I kind of went to Georgia Southern for a couple of years after for a Postdoc and had amazing mentors, you know, J.B. Claiborne who's an amazing fish physiologist and Alison Morrison-Shetlar who's the President at Lynchburg University, really laid the foundation for me as an academic and as a researcher. And so I applied for a position at James Cook University when I was in my postdoc and I didn't really think I would, you know, it's really hard to get an academic position in Australia. And I was fortunate to get that position and it was an amazing experience. I flew between five campuses. I taught a wide range of courses, and I got to work in Indigenous communities in the Torres Strait and Far North Queensland. And I had an amazing time at James Cook. It was absolutely stellar. But I was commuting back and forth to the United States every year to do my research that was based off the coast of Maine. So in 2006, I said to my husband. At that point, I've been promoted, it's all good. You know, do you want to move back to America? And my husband thankfully said, yeah, sure, we had a great time, why not? So I was applying for positions back in the United States from Australia, but really wasn't getting many interviews because, you know, we're a million miles away. And so we packed everything up and I took a temporary position at Georgia Southern hoping I would get a job in the Unites States. And so I had three applications in the hopper when we left in December of 2006 and I had 3 interviews by mid-February. So it was a calculated step, but we made that leap of faith hoping that I would get a job. And so, you know, I was there for a semester at Georgia Southern. I was offered a couple of positions and I took the one at App State and had an amazing 11 years experience at App state. It was, it's a fantastic university. It was, I really got to work with great people and I was able to do my research. I was running away so I could do my research. I was doing a lot more administration, which is ironic, I know. I was away from doing administration at James Cook to focus on my teaching and my research and then sort of whilst at App, I became assistant chair of the department, then chair of the department. I had a great NSF funded research program going on. And, you know, eventually became, you know, chair and then three years later became a vice provost. And it was not what I was thinking I was going to do. I was thinking I was, you know, going to focus on my research and, but I found that administration allowed me an opportunity to impact more lives than just the lives that were in my lab or in my classroom. And the only reason I get out of bed in the morning is for my students. And so when you have an opportunity to amplify that impact by making changes that have an impact on students. It kind of allowed me to naturally think about what's next. And I wasn't really looking for things. And in fact, the search firm badgered me into applying for a position at Wright State and I came here as provost in 2018. And the deciding factor for me was lunch with four students. I met those students, they were all working class students. They were working two, three jobs to put themselves through college. And, you know, they deserved someone who could champion them. So I went from not really, I was interested, but not really interested to being absolutely passionate about being at Wright State and making a difference. And so that was provost. And then 16 months later, the president stepped down and I became president, which still is ridiculous.
Prof Judyth Sachs:
So it was an unplanned journey?
Dr. Susan Edwards:
I never wanted to be a university president. I had no interest in being a university President. I like to be the wizard behind the curtains. I like to make things happen. I don't, I hate attention. So if you want to know my most uncomfortable thing to do is to talk about myself and you are putting me in my uncomfortable zone.
Prof Judyth Sachs:
Well, you're doing it incredibly well, and it's a great story. Can you show me the curiosity cabinet, which represents your journey as a leader and a learner?
Dr. Susan Edwards:
So I have a credenza that is full of objects and each one of these objects are something related to my students. They've come from a student, actually I have two credenzas, you can probably see one at the back here as well. And they're all filled with objects that have come from my students over the years. And they all mean something because the one thing that I value the most is my students. And so they represent those connections that I've made and, and why I do what I do.
Prof Judyth Sachs:
Well, you said that the reason you get up in the morning is because of students. Can you unpack that a bit for me?
Dr. Susan Edwards:
I don't know how anyone could do these jobs if they really didn't understand the connection and the impact that they can have with their students. My whole philosophy to being a leader is it's based upon working with humans, working with human beings. Relationships are the most important thing to anyone's success. And so I work very hard to ensure that my students have access to me and I have access to them. That means, you know, they know my name. They don't call me President Edwards. They call me Sue or Pres Sue. As you know in Australia, that's kind of the way we roll. It takes a lot for folks here to do that, but they do. And they will talk to me and they will tell me what their dreams, and ambitions, and hopes are. And it's my job to make sure that I'm giving them every opportunity for all of their dreams, hopes, and ambitions to come to reality. And so that's what I mean when I say I get out of bed for them. It's not that that's the only thing I have in my life, but it truly is why I choose to do the work that I do, whether I'm in the classroom, whether I'm in the lab, or whether I am in a role here, it's all about the students to me. And it's all about how do I support the students in the best way possible so that they can be successful.
Prof Judyth Sachs:
So what's, I know that Wright State was established to recognize the Wright brothers and I mean that's a great story in itself. I also know that you're well known for your baseball team.
Dr. Susan Edwards:
Yes, we do have a great baseball team.
Prof Judyth Sachs:
And that you are a research university. Tell me more about Wright State and particularly through the lens of having taught in Australian universities. And you know, if I was to come to Wright State, what would I see? How would it hit me?
Dr. Susan Edwards:
I think you'd find Wright State is very similar to Australian universities in the sense that we're not a purely residential campus as you might find in the United States. We have probably about 3,300 students that live on campus in dormitories. The remaining, you know, seven, 8,000 students are commuting to campus. But they're commuting from, as you would, you know in Geelong or Melbourne, you know they're not living far from campus but they're commuting in. So I think you'd find that piece is very similar to an Australian university. You know, I used to commute to Deakin. I used to commute to Melbourne. Um, you know, it was, I think that piece is very similar. And I think, that's really where the similarity ends. I think you know the Australian system and the US system are very different in the sense of Australian system is a three year degree, American system is four year liberal arts basis, before you get into your specialty. So it's very, it's very different structure to what you and I know in Australia. I think, you know, I have very, I mean, I have a medical school, I have an engineering school, you know I have a business college, liberal arts, science, and maths. So I have everything on my campus. It is, it's, we're just under 12,000 students. So it's not a huge campus. We are an urban campus. We are in a region and it was designed to support one of the largest military institutions we have. And that's Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. We're actually built on land that was granted to us from Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, which is one of the largest Air Force installations in the United States. So every building is connected by a tunnel. We were designed really to be adapted for accessibility. We're in the top three universities in the country for accessibility for students with wheelchairs. And in fact, I have just under a thousand students with disabilities. You know, that's a really, for me, that was a really important part of our history that we continue to cultivate. We have students come from all over the country to come to Wright State because of its accessibility to students with disabilities. I think the curriculum you would find is like, once you get into the majors is very similar to Australia. But I think, the way that Australian universities are run, we never really had a choice in what we were teaching. It's this is what you've been hired to teach and this is what you're going to teach. American universities is, well, I want to teach this. And I thought that that was probably the most confronting thing, I think when I originally changed, moved over here was what would you like to teach? And I'm like, well, I was hired to teach physiology. Well, what do you want to teach? I was like, physiology? I was very confused. I was like, is this a trick question? So it I mean, there was a little bit, I think it's a little more geared to academic, you know, faculty freedom, academic freedom. Whereas in Australia, I was I knew what I was teaching, because I was told every year what I was teaching. And that wasn't a bad thing. I'm not saying, it's not a judgment statement, it's just a very different system. So that's, I think that's really the only similarities and differences that I can identify off the top of my head. Medical school, of course, is a four-year postgraduate medical school, not like Australia, where I was teaching, when I was teaching medical students, they were 18.
Prof Judyth Sachs:
So the students that, so it is a university that is, that promotes equity, access, and really second chance type education it seems.
Dr. Susan Edwards:
Yes. We are an access institution and we are, really the key is to support Ohio and the region for its workforce development. We are one of the most affordable tuitions in the state. We're the second to lowest tuition in the State of Ohio and that's by design because I want everybody to have an opportunity if they wish to pursue a degree, a degree, that they can do that. You know, and the number one obstacle I find with all of my, with my students that either can't come or drop out or stop out, is finance. And so, you know, keeping an affordable, low cost but high quality education is critical for these, for not only our students. But also our economy and the economy of the state. Ohio really has undergone a bit of a resurgence in the Midwest. They've bought a lot of industry into the Midwest. Intel are building a very large chip development facility just outside Columbus, which is only an hour down the road. And we've got Joby Aviation, which are the flying taxis. They have a big plant, they're opening a big plant here. Honda, and it's very much a manufacturing industry region, but it's undergone a resurgence. You know, back in the day, of course, it was the Wright brothers and it was producing aircraft for, you know, what was the Army Air Corps, but now is the Air Force.
Prof Judyth Sachs:
The title of this podcast series is Reimagining the Future of Education. If you could take the best of your experience, and there was one teacher that you had that actually transformed your life, your PhD supervisor, and you said you could do multiple PhDs if you were working with her. What do you think in terms of reimagining the future of education in terms of your experience, where would you start?
Dr. Susan Edwards:
You know, and it's a multi-layered question, right? Because it's not a simple fix. I think that's one thing I found, you know, in this role it's like an onion, you peel away the layer and there's another layer underneath there. And you think it's a simple fix, but in fact it's not. I do think we have to reimagine education and be more, I think we have to think about it differently. People no longer, well, certainly, let me preface this. I'm generalizing. People want to be able to have education in bite-sized pieces. And you see that with accelerated degrees. You see somebody can get an MBA in 18 months, but they're doing six-week courses and it's happening, and they can do it while they're working. They can take that opportunity. You know, if we can think about stackable credentials, you know, stacking those credentials so that somebody can attain a landmark, but it doesn't diminish the actual credential that they're getting at the time. You know, I think that's, I think we have to reimagine higher education because people, financially it's burdensome. And people are left, some people are left at the end of it all with no credential at all and an awful lot of debt. And so how do we reward people along the way? And I kind of think of it similar to, as I was thinking, I had an associate's, which built on to a bachelor's, which built onto a master's, which built onto a PhD. You know, that's a stackable credential. And I didn't do it straight out of high school. Like I didn't go straight into university and continue on a linear pathway. I think we've got to make it acceptable and normal that it's a pathway that twists and turns and changes direction at all times. And life gets in the way sometimes. And it's OK to take a breath and stop and then come back in. But we as higher education have to be welcoming to students to allow them to do that. And I think that's really the future of higher ed in terms of from the student perspective. I think from a business perspective, from the business side, we have to work closer with our partners. Higher education for a long time was very good at telling business what they should and shouldn't do. We have to actually bring the businesses into the university to have the conversation around what should our curriculum look like? You know that's what really an important role of advisory boards play in each of our colleges from a curriculum development point of view, because we may be teaching something that is no longer being used. So we've got to keep that relationship with the business practices really tight because things are changing with the advent of AI and things are moving so fast that we have to have them participating in conversations around curriculum development and relevant coursework. That's not to say that the classics are the, we're not going to not teach classics. But we have to be nimble and we have to move quickly and those two things are not classically associated with higher education. You know, I think I read in another one of your other podcasts that somebody said something about a cruise ship. I would say it's more like an aircraft carrier. To make a change in a university is like turning an aircraft carrier in a very short period of time as you're heading towards the iceberg. You've got to change course. And it's really incredibly difficult. And I think from our perspective here at Wright State, we've been through some transitions that have now got us working and thinking more nimbly and has those, we have those partners either engaged with the campus through advisory boards or actually have spaces on campus where they're working and they're employing our students while they're at school. So, you know, it's just thinking about things in a more entrepreneurial way, which does sometimes take a little bit of navigating.
"So we've got to keep that relationship with the business practices really tight because things are changing with the advent of AI and things are moving so fast that we have to have them participating in conversations around curriculum development and relevant coursework."
Prof Judyth Sachs:
So what I'm hearing you say is that universities have undertaken a major pivot from when you started in an American university, what do you want to teach? So it was very much focused on the academic and the academic needs. Now the pivot is actually towards students, community, and business and what can we do for you and how can we work together. I mean, I think that that's how it should be.
Dr. Susan Edwards:
And I think it is, I mean, I think that is philosophically, that's what I believe it should be because we are a pillar of the community. We are part of the community. So unless we engage with our businesses and our community organizations, how do we serve them? And the role of a regional university is to serve our region. And so, it has been a bit of a culture shift. And I think the other thing is to say, that's not to say that our faculty here and our staff and our academics are not first and foremost. Everything falls apart if you don't have strong academics and strong support services. But if we don't look outside our world, I like to call our bubble, higher education bubble, how are we going to help shape the next iteration, the next generation, the next leaders of our community if we don't engage with the community and the business.
Watch the full interview here.
Prof Judyth Sachs:
You invoked the word AI. It's been sort of the inflection point, you know, three years ago when we talked about it people were thinking it'll be the end of universities. Then in fact people did some reflection and thought well in fact we can benefit from it so how do we incorporate it and integrate it. So what's happening with AI in your institution?
Dr. Susan Edwards:
So I still think there's, so we are doing a lot around AI and our aim is to weave it into every, not have it as a standalone, do you know what I mean? I think that's, AI is a tool. And I think we need to be very careful not to think of it as AI is a standalone degree program. It may be, but really it should be interwoven into every discipline across the campus. And each discipline is going to use it in a very different way. And you know, I think about AI back when I was in the pathology lab, I mean, they were using AI to screen, you know slides back in the day, you know, it's been around for a long time. It's not like it's new. It is just advancing because our computers are having better capabilities. And so, you know if I, if I think about machine learning. Know, which is AI is, you know, our engineering team are all on, you know, how do machines learn? And how do they advance the technology as a result of that? My psychology, you know, faculty are looking at the human interface, because you don't have AI without humans. And that's, that's I think that's the piece that people are slowly realizing is you need humans in order for AI to operate. You know, and our business community are looking at how do we decrease workloads as a result of utilizing AI in a more, in a smarter way. You know, our students are probably using it, you know how can I start a paragraph on a topic? You know we're trying to teach people about the ethics associated with AI, you know? So we're using it in different ways across the campus. Just depending on the area. But the one thing that is uniform is ethical use of AI. It is, you know, everyone was very fearful of ChatGPT when it first came out, right? And we've slowly gotten to a place where we understand it can help you. It can, Grammarly, right? I think can read a document for you and tell you whether or not the punctuation is correct or not. You know, I think that's a tool if the students are learning from that. But if you're just going to continue to throw it in there and not learn from it, you'll, I mean, that's problematic. So that's really what's happening on campus. We're also looking at how do we use AI ourselves from a data analytics standpoint. And that's how do we develop good questions to ask of our databases to get the answers that we need? You know, and that can range from facilities management all the way down to enrollment management. So, you know, it just depends on how you wish to use it, but I, I don't believe that we should be talking about AI as something that's going to take over the world. And I think really we're learning more and more about how we can interface with it to be more productive.
Prof Judyth Sachs:
But at the same time, for students, it's about learning.
Dr. Susan Edwards:
It's about learning and it's talking to them in freshman seminar about what they lose if they choose to not learn. If they choose to, one, the conduct issue, you plagiarism and you're taking credit for somebody, this is a machine that's doing your work. But what you're losing in utilizing it for everything. I mean it's a bit like the internet, you know, we use the internet for everything now. But recognizing your AI is not going to give you references. AI is not going to get you to the primary sources. AI and that's really important, right? So it's really talking to them from that freshman level all the way through about, you know, you're here to learn, you know, and learning involves knowing where to seek out information and distilling that information, and reporting on that information and that doesn't go away, not even with AI.
"It's about learning and it's talking to them in freshman seminar about what they lose if they choose to not learn."
Prof Judyth Sachs:
I've got three more questions to ask you. The first one is, if you could do one thing to support your students to be successful from your office, what would that be?
Dr. Susan Edwards:
Raise more money. As an access institution, you know that affordability is a really big piece of it. And, you know, what I see over and over again is I meet students who are more than capable and we are losing so many highly capable students just because they can't afford an education, that is what I would change. I would, I would change that ability for those kids to have that opportunity because we are, we as a society are losing out by them not fulfilling their, you know, as, as their potential. You know, and I think that's tragic. I can change internal things, you know, that's, I've done that, to make it better, to have more support mechanisms for them. I've got, I have every opportunity for a student to succeed here. They have every opportunity to succeed. What I can't necessarily control is the amount of fundraising I can do in a given year to provide those students scholarships. And we have a program here, it's called Take Flight, and it's aimed at students that are Pell eligible, their eligibility for funding is, their needs are great for funding, but they've got high, mid-range GPAs and they're incredible, they're the go-getters. They're the kids that are going to be out there changing the world because they've had to fight for it. And so that's one thing I would change.
Prof Judyth Sachs:
Second last question. You've been to multiple graduations over your life. They're joyful occasions. You walk around the campus, you talk to students. That's joyful. What advice do you give students?
Dr. Susan Edwards:
I just had one in my office about two hours ago. And this generation are incredibly anxious. And I think fear is an enormous disabler if you allow it to disable you. And it took me an awful long time to realize that fear is a natural thing. And if you're not frightened, then you're probably, it's time to move on. And I sort of said to them, fear is an amazing tool if you use it in the right way. And that is use it as a source of energy, you know? Don't get lost in it because you're not going to succeed if you get lost in it. You've got to figure out a way to manage it and use it as a positive force as opposed to a negative force. And don't be frightened to fail. Because anxiety is riddled in being fearful of failure. And we only grow when we fail. And so I want to normalize failure as part of a growth process and really talk to them about, okay, what you need to do if you think you've failed at something, it's not the end of the world. What did you learn from it? You know, what did you gain from it? You are going to gain something, you may not realize it on the day that it happens, but you're going to look back and you're going to go huh that didn't work out the way it was going to but you know what it's led me to this and this is now a positive thing in this is how I'm moving forward. Um, that, that is the advice I give them is, is don't, don't get lost in fear. Use it as a positive energy source and don't be frightened to fail.
Prof Judyth Sachs:
What advice would you give to Pres Sue and her younger self?
Dr. Susan Edwards:
I could say run, um, you know. I would say to President Sue, I would say seize every opportunity that comes your way. Don't be frightened to fail. Don't be frightened to have a go, as we would say in Australia. I think there was a slogan in Australia, you'll never, never know if you never, never go, right? And so I think I would tell her just to do what she thinks is the right thing to do and it'll all work out. And there are some days when you don't think that it's all going to work out. But you've got to have the courage to try something new. And as a president, you gotta lead by example, Sue. So get on with it and lead by example. Be the person that you want others to be.
Prof Judyth Sachs:
Now my last question, and this is the last question, is a bit quirky.
Dr. Susan Edwards:
Okay.
Prof Judyth Sachs:
What are you currently reading?
Dr. Susan Edwards:
Oh gosh. I am, I am one of those people that have a few books on the go. Um that's, that's the great thing about our devices. Right? So right now I have I think I've got four books open. And I will tell you what they're called, cause I'm, I'm terrible with titles. I'm terrible with names and titles. But I can tell you all about either the person or the book. I'm reading a book right now that is talking about AI and leadership. It's a fascinating read. It reads like a technical manual, but it kind of simplifies everything. So it kind is trying to get you to think about how can you use AI in your workplace to make those mundane tasks a little more simpler. So that's one of the books I'm reading. Another one I'm writing right now is I'm going to the Somme this summer. So I'm reading, I've got a book on the Western front of the North, so the North of the Western Front, and I'm reading another one on the 100th anniversary of the Somme. I've got those three books on the go right now. And two of them are really, I'm learning more about World War I.
Prof Judyth Sachs:
So is that holiday, or is it sort of?
Dr. Susan Edwards:
That will be my vacation for the year. I'm a bit of a history buff. I spend a lot of time reading history articles and books, and I was always fascinated, I'm always fascinated by World War I, you know, and, and I think it's because we're brought up with the Anzac tradition. And so I really wanted to go and sort of see where all this activity had taken place and where so many people had lost their lives, it's a bit morbid, but it was just because I've read so much about it and so we're doing a, my husband and I are going to drive, we're actually going to go to Dunkirk as well because it's there, but we're going to sort of do a little World War I history trip, which will be fascinating and really pay respects to those people that, you know, put their lives on the line to allow us to do what we do. You know, the Anzac tradition, you know, is, it reigns true and of course it's April. And I will, I have, we have an Australian contingent over at the base and we do Anzac Day every year. So I look forward to, you know celebrating and remembering our Anzacs as we do back home in Australia.
Prof Judyth Sachs:
Sue this has been the most delightful and informative conversation. I hope that you've enjoyed it as much as I have and it's really nice to see that an Australian is thriving in America and please keep up the good work and just be the legend that you are seen to be amongst your peers in the university. So thank you and perhaps one day our paths will cross.
Dr. Susan Edwards:
I would love that. It was great to talk to you, and it's always great to talk to a fellow Australian. I'm truly blessed to be in my role, and thank you for reaching out to me.
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